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  • http://www.raymondcamdencom/ Raymond Camden

    So the obvious question is – when can we see a blog post demonstrating how to add this support in Ionic? 🙂

  • http://felquis.com/ Felquis Gimenes

    Just to say the obvious.

    I don’t work for these companies, I work for the Web. I work for Users not for Companies.

    The world doesn’t live only around Google and Apple, there’s a entire spectrum of possibilities waiting to be discovered.

    For sure, the years I spent working with iOS and Android, was the worst years of my life.

    We don’t need to recreate the Web into companies’ controlled apps, that is what they want – to control the users in everything – we need to fix the web, we need to fix user’s privacy, offer to the users the solutions they need, not the solutions apple and google needs, what is the user needs into this whole history. Everything you said, is just done in the Web.

    I do believe in the Web – and people need to understand – if the Web isn’t good enough, it will get good enough, if you’re not good enough, you can also get better. I WILL WORK MY ENTIRE LIFE FOR THE WEB.

    Best Wishes.

    • yesimahuman

      Great points Felquis, I 100% agree. One of the goals I have, personally, is to make the web stack just as good as the native stack on mobile, and then get more people to also deploy the same apps as websites. Right now, power is shifting to a few major vendors which is unfortunate, but one way that we fight against that is using technology that works everywhere, like Ionic and other web-based frameworks. I’m not sure what the next few years have in store for us, but trust me when I say that we are more aligned with that vision than not.

    • https://github.com/leob Leo van den Bulck

      So, you’re taking a very critical stance against the idea that “everything has to be an app” (instead of a website).

      I can understand the reasoning (apps being part of an ecosystem controlled by a few big companies). I also have my doubts about the idea that everything should be an app.

      However I do like the easy development model of Ionic.

      You know what I would like? Being able to use the same easy Ionic components and tools (and knowledge) to develop web sites or web apps.

      Why would we need to “redo” our apps 2 or 3 times, first developing a mobile variant, then writing everything (except the backend code) again for the web? Shouldn’t be necessary.

      • http://felquis.com/ Felquis Gimenes

        I love this paragraph:
        “Good web design always caters to the needs of the user. Are your web visitors looking for information, entertainment, some type of interaction, or to transact with your business? Each page of your website needs to have a clear purpose, and to fulfill a specific need for your website users in the most effective way possible.” from http://shortiedesigns.com/2014/03/10-top-principles-effective-web-design/

        I’m 100% with you. That is exactly what all web developers a met want. Everybody loves the flexibility of the Web (and this flexibility is also what some people don’t understand and hate or make unfair use of)

        • http://foodcult.sk/ Pepso

          Well, that’s true – the most basic purpose of a good design is to guide the user to a specific goal. If you don’t have a goal set, it’s not a design in my world, it’s just some mechanism that is slapped on a page.

          Rand Fishkin, the overlord of SEO and online marketing says that the keyword of a 2017 successful website will be engagement – both as in “don’t let the user leave the site” and “brand engagement”. It’s explained in more detail here http://itshighnoon.eu/home/how-to-make-host-design-own-good-best-website-2017-free

    • http://www.stewartfarr.blogspot.com/ Stewart Farr

      The world is offline. The sooner the world understands this – the quicker things will get done.

      That is the fundamental advantage of an app. The web can not replace it without being completely invasive (yes it can get more invasive than it is).

      This is the same reason that while Uber revolutionized the transport industry…….it didn’t replace it.
      Google/Search revolutionized research…….but didn’t replace it.

      Stream altered the way we view content. But it hasn’t changed the content we view.

      We need to build for both world, web/_aaS and the downloaded physical world. Because when that signal disappears……..the WWW goes with it.
      Let’s not brick the world just because the signal is lost. Design redundancy – build better.

      • http://www.raymondcamdencom/ Raymond Camden

        Actually, you have multiple different ways to handle offline on the web now – AppCache and Service Workers. Service Workers aren’t supported by Safari… yet… but they don’t break on iOS either.

        • http://www.stewartfarr.blogspot.com/ Stewart Farr

          It’s all fun an games until api calls and services fail. We have 1000 times the horsepower in a mobile device than most computers had……yet we insist on pushing everything cloud based.

          Platform is underrated, and underutilized. The DLL horrors of the past will revisit us again when we try and reference materials that aren’t there anymore.

          Or perhaps we should just build devices dumber and move 100% in that direction. Either way we are being wasteful.

  • Jean-Mouloud

    “I hope one day Ionic can be the “WordPress for mobile.””
    I hope for you it will never be the case. Imagine all these useless blogs that exist only because it’s so easy to create its own WordPress in a few clicks but have no content turned into apps?
    What a nightmare!
    Please never become the “WordPress for mobile.”

    • http://www.raymondcamdencom/ Raymond Camden

      What is useless for you may not be useless for every one else. I want Ionic to enable me – not judge what should or should not be allowed.

      • yesimahuman

        WordPress has enabled so many people to participate on the web. No, it might not be built with the hottest tech, or use the latest greatest framework, but it has impacted more lives than many technologies. That’s what I want for Ionic.

      • Jean-Mouloud

        Correct. I want them to enable you and me. Not “everyone” to build “anything” and finishing like WordPress disaster.

        • http://www.raymondcamdencom/ Raymond Camden

          I hope you are being sarcastic and I just don’t get it. You (and I) have no right to judge who is allowed to create.

          • Jean-Mouloud

            To reassure you, I am being sarcastic 🙂
            But still I don’t want garbage apps to increase exponentially by making it too easy to publish apps.

  • http://www.syntagm.co.za Chrisat Syntagm

    Right on Max. We are right behind you.

  • http://twitter.com/sigdestad Thomas Sigdestad

    There are few things that annoy me more than websites pushing for me to install their app. Forcing me to install an app to get access search result content seems even worse.

    Apps are nice, but I’m really looking forward to the day when “Web Apps” take over completely, everything running in your browser/device – seamlessly interacting with your hardware.

    • http://www.raymondcamdencom/ Raymond Camden

      “Forcing me to install an app to get access search result content seems even worse.”

      Unless I’m mistaken, this isn’t about forcing anything, but rather exposing your app content to Google like you would www content. Now obviously if you don’t have a web site, then a person would need the app, but given that you have both available, the *user* decides if they want to view the app’s content vs the web’s content.

      • http://www.ericterpstra.com/ eterps

        Indexing app content and diverting traffic into apps is a shift from the open web to proprietary platforms. It’s fine *if* content exists in both places (web and app) and the user is free to choose. The problem occurs when publishers *only* start creating content for apps. Then you’ve marginalized anyone who does not have the latest Google/Apple device that supports these features. Users that only have a lowly PC, or Microsoft phone, or cheap Android on an old OS are left out because they won’t be able to follow Google links to “Our shiny new app! (that only supports iOS 11 and Android 8)”

        A “WordPress for Apps” only makes it that much easier for content creators to publish to locked-down, proprietary platforms rather than the open, standards based web. This has happened before (Flash, Silverlight, Unity). Unfortunatly, browser vendors (Google, Apple, MS, Mozilla) and platform providers (Adobe, MS, Unity) were different entities, and the web won. Now, the browser vendors and proprietary platform providers are the same (Google, Apple). Now it makes sense for Google to put more resources in diverting traffic into its app ecosystem rather than beef up Chrome for mobile.

        Anyway, I applaud the Ionic team for the amazing products they crank out, I just with there was more focus on performance and feature parity with native SDKs than making it as easy as possible to crank out apps of questionable value.

        • yesimahuman

          I totally agree about the lock-in. I think it’s a bit of a trojan horse: Ionic apps work natively, but they also run just as well in a mobile browser. How many other technologies can say the same?

          I want the web to win, I just think how we get there is going to involve a bit of “playing the game.”

          As for the last bit, those are hardly mutually exclusive. Ionic 1 took off because it was easy and also created decent apps. Ionic 2 really improves the quality and performance of the apps, while making it even easier. We always strive to do both.

      • Corey Quillen

        They don’t force you to install their apps, but they sure do bug the heck out of you to! It’s often a full-page splash screen or button right at the very top. It’s probably confusing to users who don’t understand the difference.

        Good article on Tech Crunch about this a couple of weeks ago called ‘I Do Not want Your Stupid App’:

        http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/03/with-apologies-to-theodor-geisel/

  • http://www.ericterpstra.com/ eterps

    > And I don’t think Apple has been shy about pushing for a future in which apps replace websites

    This is not a good thing. Apple wants you in apps to keep you locked into their ecosystem so you keep buying more iPhones, iOS apps, and handing over your data to iAd customers. The same goes for Google and Android.

    Apps should not replace websites. Websites should become more mobile friendly. Native apps should add significant value in order to be an app – such as tightly interacting with hardware (games, bluetooth accessories, sensors), or relying on mobility (maps, geolocation). Encouraging the shifting of content from a free and open platform (the web) to proprietary platforms controlled by two corporations is irresponsible.

    > Just think: One day you might not need to “install” an app before you use it, just like you don’t have to install a web page to view it. In that world, an app and a web page/blog are practically the same.

    I can’t help but recall this cartoon:

    https://xkcd.com/1367/

    • yesimahuman

      The mistake is thinking there’s a “should” here, or that we have any control over what apple and google do or where they want to take things. The reality is people *like* using apps, they find it easy to go the app store and find apps. They are getting used to the concept. Whether we like it or not, that is turning out to be a pretty strong sea change in user behavior.

      We want to make it easy for people to target that use case, but also use the web. Your anger is misdirected.

      • http://www.ericterpstra.com/ eterps

        Yes, it’s an ideological difference. The tone of the article and responses are that Ionic is catering to the demands of the marketplace (as any profitable enterprise does). The *should* enters the equation when we think about if the marketplace knows what is good for itself.

        The reality is, people *like* smoking cigarettes and eating Twinkies. They find it pleasurable. But whether we like it or not, it’s ultimately a detrimental behavior for the individual, and society at large.

        My anger is not directed at Ionic, but rather the notion that proprietary app platforms and the open web are considered equal. That, and enabling users to prefer walled gardens because ‘that is what the market demands’.

        • yesimahuman

          A fair point 🙂

          I think something we should do with v2 is be a lot more loud about how it can be used to build great mobile websites. That was something we shied away from in v1 and was not doing the web a great service.

          • http://www.ericterpstra.com/ eterps

            Ahh, I was not aware that was a goal with v2. Kudos. Which I guess brings me to my ultimate point – message matters. You guys have built an awesome set of tools – which has brought a huge audience. My feathers got a bit ruffled not by what you’re building, but by what you’re saying (in this article only, really).

            But then again, you can’t please all the people all the time 😉

            Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

      • Corey Quillen

        Of course there is a sea change in user behavior, but we need to understand the reasons for the change on a deeper level than just saying that users like apps.

        IMO, it’s not because apps are simpler as this article implies, but because native apps got a huge head start in terms of device access and user experience on that form factor.

        The web platform will probably catch up soon. People will like having more choices every few years when they upgrade their phones: iOS, Android, Windows Phone, and maybe even BlackBerry and Firefox OS.

        • yesimahuman

          Funny, I was just building a demo with Ionic using web gl, accelerometer, etc. and the app worked perfectly in mobile safari without needing any native plugins or needing to run in a cordova shell. I agree with you: the web stack will only continue to get more amazing every year.

          • Corey Quillen

            That’s awesome!

            Speaking of device APIs. I still can’t get camera access in iOS Safari but as Google, Firefox, and now Microsoft get behind WebRTC, it’s probably only a matter of time before Apple has to implement it 🙂

            On that note, I think native apps will always stay ahead of the web platform in terms of the latest and greatest sensors and device APIs, but the vast majority of apps won’t need all of those sensors across every platform they’re targeting.

          • http://www.raymondcamdencom/ Raymond Camden

            “I still can’t get camera access in iOS Safari”

            Maybe try this: http://www.raymondcamden.com/2013/05/20/capturing-camerapicture-data-without-phonegap

          • Corey Quillen

            Thanks Raymond, I’ll try that!

    • Hostels

      I agree that apps’ replacing websites is a terrible direction for technology. The WWW is great because it’s an open platform. Apps are walled gardens that are locked into expensive hardware. We’re moving towards a future where users don’t have any control over their devices and content. It’s like the AOL of 2000 happening again, but worse.

  • pkbyron

    To me the browser vs app debate misses the point of this announcement : the power of the web is in it’s protocols and rendering – browsers are just one rendering app for the web; apps are another; think IoT. Hence why this news is FANTASTIC! Power to the Users 🙂

  • aderowbotham

    “WordPress for mobile.” Fair enough, many people will benefit from that. But as a developer that stated aim puts me right off! WordPress is a mess. Maybe Ionic isn’t for me.

    • yesimahuman

      I wouldn’t take it too literally. It’s more a metaphor about the impact of the technology. I’d like to think Ionic has much more rigorous engineering standards.

      • aderowbotham

        That’s a fair point. But still – the idea that they are gunning for non-technical users and so on, is great for those users but possibly less good for those of us who like to get under the hood and craft more bespoke experiences.

        • http://www.raymondcamdencom/ Raymond Camden

          It isn’t an either/or scenario though. Ionic can provide help for non-technical *and* technical users. Look at Ionic Creator. It isn’t something I’d regularly use, but I think it is an excellent tool, especially for non-techs.

          • aderowbotham

            Hmm. I’ve actually only built one (production) Ionic app and I’ve found it rather opinionated, but then I did use one of their ‘app templates’. I am using “ for example. Maybe I’ve got the wrong first impression by diving in this way, rather than just treating more like a set of tools (like ng-cordova, which is great).

  • http://hotentic.com Jean-Baptiste

    While WordPress probably did a good job at enabling blogging for everyone, it has also generated an incredible amount of technical debt when it comes to general purpose websites. And it still does.
    So in that sense, I really hope that Ionic isn’t going to be the WordPress for mobiles. We need maintainable and sustainable applications. I love what you’ve done with Ionic so far and I thank you for that, but please don’t take it away from the developers.

  • Corey Quillen

    “Most people can understand what an ‘app’ is. Understanding what a website is, and how URLs work, is increasingly a foreign concept.”

    What?? This is backwards. You click a link, in an email say, and a few seconds later an article, a video, or even an application appears. Computers have worked this way for 20+ years. How is an iOS or Android app any simpler to understand?

    I’ve long wished that Ionic officially supported using their framework in pure mobile web applications in addition to hybrid apps, but they never have as far as I can tell. This blog might explain why. It appears that the author thinks pure native apps are better and simpler.

    • yesimahuman

      Hey Corey. I’ve actually changed my tune on supporting mobile web applications. We recently had a huge user of Ionic build a great mobile website, and I’m starting to see a lot more interest in our community for that use case. The thing is: it’s practically our most widely supported platform, since we develop and test primarily in the mobile web browser!

      I don’t think apps are “better,” and I’m not making any judgement calls here. Really, the market and user behavior seems to be heading in this direction whether we like it or not, so on one hand we want to make sure Ionic devs can cater to that userbase, but we also want to make sure we can build a great web. I want to do both.

      • Corey Quillen

        Great news! I’m really glad to hear that. I’ll certainly give Ionic another look when I refactor to Angular 2.

  • http://AhmadAwais.com/ Ahmad Awais

    While Ionic is great, I think the future is web, less apps more web.